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I could use some info please. I have had a serious parasite problem for a couple of months. It is either cryptocaryon or velvet, or both. I have had cupramine in the tank at .50 for over three weeks, and have given the tank two doses of QuICK Cure. I have also gone through two rounds of Marycyn and Marycyn-2 for infections the fish have had from the parasites. I have done a water change weekly, including one of 50% a week ago and a 30% change yesterday. I re-medicate after the water changes to bring the copper back up to .50. During this process, the tank has recycled, and the pH went down, and the ammonia shot up. Now the pH is OK and the ammonia is 0, but the nitrites are at 5ppm, despite the two water changes in the last week. (I did test the new water before adding, and it was ammonia and nitrite free)

The fish sometimes have small white spots covering them (including their eyes), especially in the morning. The spots are not like salt, but more like talcum powder in size. There is also a different symptom of white spots, but even finer than the "talcum powder" ones, and more of a "dust" vs. a powder. The eyes of the fish sometimes get blurry, and appear to have mucus hanging off them. I have lost all of my fish (Including a small regal angel and a Bicolour) other than a small parrotfish, which seems to be the heartiest. I have a hospital tank, but can't use it for the parrot as it has a sea urchin and decorator crab which were removed before the copper was added to my regular tank. There are also 2 damsels in the hospital tank, and it is on its first cycle. The hospital tank is 6 gallons, and too small for the parrot with the other invertebrates, and damsels.

After the long story, here is my question. I have observed tiny white worms covering the glass in my tank during this process. They are about 1 mm long. I looked at them with my 16X loupe, and they appear to be tiny larvae, which look like white caterpillars. They have small orange/yellow sections on them. There are also tiny eggs, which also stick to the glass, and I assume they are laying them. I also am observing tiny brown worms which are perhaps 1/4 the size of the white larvae ones. The brown ones are too small to make out the details at 16X. The worms, brown and white, do move around on the glass. These three critters, the white worms, the brown ones, and the eggs are all part of the same community on the glass. I have used a magnet scraper to wipe these guys out, but they have returned. What are they? Are these the parasites? Could they be some sort of plankton? Also, any advice on this whole parasite nightmare problem would be appreciated! I am really attached to the parrot, (His name is "Polly", named by my 4 year old daughter) who will be devastated if it dies!

Well, it sounds as if you have quite a problem. Now, I don't know how old your tank is, or how experienced you are, but I'm assuming that you (and the tank) are fairly new to marines (correct me if I'm wrong!). Maybe you were going a bit too fast, and then over-reacted when things started to go wrong...

Regarding your question, (again without knowing for sure, due to a lack of information), I would think that the little white "worms" on the aquarium glass is not related to the tank problems. They are probably just some kind of "coral worm" or very small "Spiral Fanworm", normally found in most (all?) aquaria.

Well, I do have a new tank (about 4 months old). I did have a 55-gallon for 7 years, and was out of the hobby for about 7 years. In the 7 years I had a tank, I only lost one cowfish. Good old undergravel filter, and an outside filter. No UV, protein skimmer, none of that. Now I have a 37-gallon Eclipse, almost 6 months old. It went through the whole ammonia, NO2, NO3 process, and had perfect water. I had mostly fish, a regal and bicolour angel both 3 inches, a mandarin, a 4-inch parrot, a pair of small clowns, and a sea urchin and decorator crab and two small nudibranches. I also had about 5 lbs. of live rock. Lots of things, but all small. Then my wife bought a Royal Gramma from a different dealer about two months ago, and the nightmare began. The Gramma hid in a barnacle for three days, died with horrible fin rot, and after that the cryptocaryon began. I started with melafix, then quick cure, but the problem got worse. 3 weeks+ ago I did cupramine, and the problem persists. It eventually killed all of the fish other than the parrot. Everything I've read says 1 month of the copper should do it, but I'm concerned the problem will continue. The parrot showed the telltale signs of cryptocaryon infestation the last two days, the white spots, on the eyes and caudal fin, and at the base of the pectoral fins, and on several locations on his body. He does not show any signs of respiratory distress, but I'm concerned the parasites will get him now, as he is the only fish in the aquarium. Here's a question, I thought that the copper was supposed to kill the cryptocaryon while it was in the free-swimming stage? Well, if I see the spots, then those little swimming buggers must be living through it to bore their little bodies into my poor fish! Why isn't the cupramine killing them? I don't see evidence of the spots everyday, but at least every other day, and for the last two days for sure.

Those worms I spoke of seem to hang out on the portions of the glass where there is less current and where the algae grows (I have a power head midway down the tank for water movement). The parrot does like to munch on them, so I hope they are just a food source.

Personally, I have read information contrary to yours stating that they hatch out in darkness and in my tank outbreaks would always occur at night. I would notice new white spots on the fish as soon as I turned the lights on in the morning. Also, if I turned the light on in the middle of the night to check them, it would look nasty. So I do not think it is their sight but the susceptibility of the fish.

The ICK life cycle is longer that a fortnight. If I remember this correctly the free-swimming stage is the only stage where you can kill the parasite with medication. In the next stage it attaches itself to a _bony fish_ and feeds and matures. A cyst will form, then drop off, settle and attach to the substrate. The cyst will grow and burst, releasing many more free-swimming parasites into the water. After a few days if the free-swimming parasite does not find a host it dies.

The whole cycle takes a month, so to irradiate the infection the system must be free of bony fish for a month to five weeks or have medication in there for the same period.

All the medications available attack the free-swimming stage so if the fish are kept in the _infected_ system then the medication must be added for 4-5 weeks to be effective. The cysts disappearing from the fish is just the parasite moving onto the next stage.

OK, all my fish are dead. I really don't know now if it's from the cryptocaryon, or the copper. Now that I have an empty tank, what do I do? Do I dump everything, and start over? (I have a FO tank) the system is a 37-gallon Eclipse III. The substrate is pukka shell, and there are a few live (now dead from copper) rocks. Of course, the water is still perfect pH 8.2, AM 0, NO2 0, NO3 0. My thoughts are too lower the salinity to 1.010, bring the temp up to 90 degrees, and let all the crypto hatch and die in the copper swimming around looking for a host. Will the copper, high temp, or hyposalinity hurt my biological filter? Also, will the bio filter maintain when there are no fish producing waste products? PLEASE HELP!!! Oh by the way, I'm certain of the crypto diagnosis. My LFS had the local distributor (who is his friend and expert on saltwater tanks) come to my house to see what was going on. He was the first person that made the crypto diagnosis 2 months ago.

Have you tried Tri-Sulpha Tablets (by Aquamaster)? They contain three antibiotics that are reef safe (sulfadiazine, sulfadimidine and sulfamerazine -can't half tell that I'm a pharmacist...).

When I have had outbreaks this works well, along with an increase in the tank temperature to about 28C (this accelerates the life cycle of oodinium, increases the exposure of the susceptible stage to the antibiotics). However, I think it works just as well without.

I use NO-ICH by FishVet, Inc. I have had wonderful results and it is completely reef safe.

I feel that Bob was a little over the top in expressing his views about reef medication, especially as there were at least four other postings stating that various medications had worked for them.

WS, I have to disagree with your comment. While other people posted that various medications had worked for them to cure ich, it doesn't mean it worked or is reliable. If these people left their tanks alone, would the white spots have gone away themselves? Was it ich? Which strain of ich?

The method of diagnosis of ich (Cryptocaryonosis) is with a wet mount of skin or gills with the parasite or histopathology of skin or gills with the parasite. We are all assuming that white spots that reoccur and spread is ich. There are other parasites that cause white spots also. It is usually a good assumption to treat for ich when the spots progress because if it is ich and the fish is unable to fight it off then it will probably die without treatment.

Why do I question whether reef safe medications for ich works? First my observation, it didn't work for me and when I started to question the treatment, I was not happy with the answers. When I contacted Dr. Sam Grillo (creator) of Kich-Ich, he advised that it helps control ich. He further advised that if it kills off 99.9% of the free swimming stage of ich, then many thousands would still be left but the population would be reduced. This was not acceptable to me to keep having ich reoccurring. I then contacted other parties who are considered experts in the field and have nothing to gain by recommending or not recommending any product. I contacted Bob Fenner (of The Conscientious Marine Aquarist) who advised that the best cure for ich was copper and that he knew of no medication that worked in a reef tank. I further contacted personnel in the aqualabs of the Miami Sea Aquarium, Orlando's Sea World and the New York Aquarium. All of the personnel that I spoke to advised that they have tested and found no effective reef safe medications. Some of the personnel knew of the medication that has been previously mentioned which they found to be unreliable. When I worked in research, you have to be able to reproduce other people's results. In this case, there are many variables involved but the results have been very poor. I have spoken to many people who have tried the different medication with poor results and possible side effects in reef tanks.

I am not an expert in marine fish in any way. I have not set up any experiments to test the effectiveness of reef safe medications. For quarantine information and fish treatment, I call upon people who are experts in the field and have nothing to gain by their advice. The large aquariums (not LFS) have been keeping reef fish for many decades. They are able to keep tangs, butterflies and angels for decades when the average hobbyist is lucky to keep the fish alive for a year. When I respond to a request for information that I know or have researched, I give an answer with the sources. I recommend that you call the large aquariums in your Country that keep reef fish for information. Most of the personnel are great resources of information. In the early 1970's, personnel in the Miami Sea Aquarium (I was visiting from N.Y.) discussed what fish were easy to keep. They advised that they couldn't keep most of the butterfly and angelfish that the LFS in N.Y. advised was hardy and easy to keep. Other resources in fish disease and diagnosis is "Fish Disease, Diagnosis and Treatment" by Edward Noga, DVM. It was recommended by some of the above personnel and published by Iowa State University Press, Veterinary Medicine Books.

This email is not an attempt to cause any flaming but to advise of conventional treatments and sources for additional information. Keeping a marine tank can be a very expensive hobby in both time and money. The success rate unfortunately has been very poor when the majority of hobbyists are only able to keep their fish alive for a fraction of their life span.

PS. This is not to say that the current "Reef Safe" medications are all useless. It only questions their current track record and whether they are worth using instead of the conventional treatment of copper or hyposalinity for ich that are proven treatments.

I accept that you have sought a lot of opinions on the efficacy of reef safe treatments, however that does not negate the fact that many people have found them useful. Whether they were treating ich or not, the medication appeared to cure whatever was wrong.

I still feel that you were wrong to categorically state that there was no other option but to break down the whole system. The stress and long term effects of this could be far reaching. As you suggest this science is in its infancy. There are too many variables and too many unknowns; it behoves everyone to keep an open mind.

There are many "experts" and some are genuinely knowledgeable people but some are not.
What do these public aquaria do when they have an outbreak of disease? Do they break down their tanks? I think not. Please understand that I too have no axe to grind on this. I have never had an outbreak of ich or any whitespot type disease. If I did I would have a big problem, as my tank is mainly an invert tank. I find these discussions useful because they make people question their assumptions and as I said previously we all need to keep an open mind.